Is this a dumb idea?

[cbrsmurf]

I guess the title should be "HOW dumb is this idea..." -- so I want to start sliding the rear into turns and to help me get a feel for it, here's what I plan to do:

go to a large parking lot, turn the bike in very slightly so there is slight lean angle and use the rear brake to where it starts to slide/lock up.

I am cruisin for a bruisin or might this be a safe way to practice this. I don't understand the physics of this quite well, though and not sure what the bike would do.

When the bike is straight up and the rear wheel locks up hard, the rear end (steering stem back) will start swinging from side to side. What will happen if there is some lean -- will the bike be swinging side to side or will it just swing to one side?

[MotoFuzzle]

I suggest doing it on a bicycle with gear on (for locking up the rear)...unless you can get a-hold of a really old banged up moto or scooter (in which case you may be able to spin the rear w/ the throttle).

[pjpellici]

.yes!

[sandogn]

I smell a highside......

[ssoulssurfer]

I don't know how the pros learn them, you can seem them slide that rear end into a turn when they're trying to look all fancy... This parking lot idea may be a good way, but it depends on what kind of speeds were talking here, I may agree with sandogn if you get going kind of quick.

[veejay]

nah don't think this is a good idea...

most of the rear tire slides you see are because of heavy FRONT BRAKE followed by quick downshifting and easing out the cluch (easier w. slipper clutch).

easiest way to learn how to do this is probably with a supermoto bike... not a sportbike.

www.supermotojunkie.com has tips on how to "back it in"
just do a search in the forums

[Mael]

VJ is right. Backing it in isn't caused by locking of the rear wheel. Its so much front brake that the ass end gets light enough to lose traction beause of engine speed from down shifting.



If you start taking turns and applying rear brake you're just gonna mess up the physics of the bike. Probably gonna be painfull, expensive, and FAST!

[cbrsmurf]

I agree that many times it is the braking and downshifting that breaks the rear end loose, but it is undeniable that a few of them use the rear brake to assist (i.e. Hayden and I've seen Chris Ulrich do it right in front of me) and you can see it in this vid at around the 2:20 mark

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2980339455045998925&q=suzuki

(bad ass video btw)

I was planning to do it at fairly low speeds ('bout 30mph-45 mph) but if you guys think it's a bad idea, i'll hold off

[cbrsmurf]

VJ is right. Backing it in isn't caused by locking of the rear wheel. Its so much front brake that the ass end gets light enough to lose traction beause of engine speed from down shifting.



If you start taking turns and applying rear brake you're just gonna mess up the physics of the bike. Probably gonna be painfull, expensive, and FAST!

you're right, I don't know what I was thinking, sliding in the middle of a turn isn't caused by rear wheel lock but lack of grip between the tire and ground

[Cyanide41]

I do believe keith code has a bike you can practice this on. Rich??? Personally I have no strong desire to "back it in." I would rather keep as much traction as possible. Maybe some day.

[GPTECHMAN]

do it!

[Termin8r]

I do believe keith code has a bike you can practice this on. Rich??? Personally I have no strong desire to "back it in." I would rather keep as much traction as possible. Maybe some day.

CSS teaches you on their lean bike how to bust the rear tire loose in level 4 just so you know what it feels like to go beyond the edge of traction. I haven't done it yet, but Mike has. I did see some guys doing it, and one guy looked like he was going to fly off but managed to stay on the bike. Even on the lean bike, I'm sure someone can highside if they don't manage the throttle well enough.

I'm sure Stuman can comment on this more. Personally, I'm not too eager to want to try this, and doing it just for the sake of doing it is no different than dragging knee just to drag knee. It's not going to make you faster knowing how to do this, Jeff, but if it happens, just go with it.

[shaggy]

do it!

your an azzhole!

Jeff, don't even think about doing this on your bike, you will destroy it.
If you want to learn how to slide the back end and survive, then borrow somones dirtbike and head out to the dessert. Once you get comfortable with that then hop on a supermoto. There's no reason to do this if you just want to be like somebody else.

Yes, Nicky Hayden does it, but he also grew up on dirt ovals where they don't have a front brake! As far as Ulrich, I think he probly f#'ed up, cause he isn't normally a rear braker...

Backing it in with the rear brake isn't benificall at all, look at honda, they have made changes to the bike so that Nicky CANN'T use the rear brake as effectively. Like others have said, use the front brakes hard, downshift smoothly, and if the back end comes out it comes out. Just be ready for it and let it swing around till you get back on the gas...smoothly.

[shaggy]

CSS teaches you on their lean bike how to bust the rear tire loose in level 4 just so you know what it feels like to go beyond the edge of traction. I haven't done it yet, but Mike has. I did see some guys doing it, and one guy looked like he was going to fly off but managed to stay on the bike. Even on the lean bike, I'm sure someone can highside if they don't manage the throttle well enough.

I'm sure Stuman can comment on this more. Personally, I'm not too eager to want to try this, and doing it just for the sake of doing it is no different than dragging knee just to drag knee. It's not going to make you faster knowing how to do this, Jeff, but if it happens, just go with it.

the CSS bike is awesome, but it serves an entirely different purpose. Jeff wants to back it in under braking, the Slide bike is for power on slides like at the exit of a corner, awesome to practice your darkie skills!

[MrCrashRR]

when i had the duke,...sure it was fun and only took a few practice runs to get it down....

how does this compare to anything on the track......

very little if any.... just get more track time and it will come

[hypersport]

Be safe, get a dirt bike!

[Dissident]

I think the brake slide in the video is pure showboating for the camera... When I did STAR school and did the 2 laps on pridmore's bike, it felt like the back was sliding when we came into the corners, but it felt like it was from the speed we were coming in at and not from the rear brake...

The way I look at it is it one of those techniques, that, if it doesn't come naturally, why bother trying to leanr it, when there are more fundamental things left to be mastered. If you really think you are at the limits of the bike without sliding it in, go then work on it. I always never knew I'm note ever riding close to that limit (and STAR school made me realize truly how far away from it I am - way farther than I thought)

[r1brip]

Jeff, you're awesome... sounds like a fun idea. Might want to practice on a dirtbike first but when you want to try it on the street I'm down to come try it with you

[longhornGSXR]

i wouldnt do it...You will be expecting this to happend and when you are riding and it actually happend it comes when you least expect it. I smell trouble...Just read up on what to do if it happends know what to do. Not sure if that help but there you go...

[zx6racer]

Hell ya, go for it.!!!!! but set up some cones in a turn formation(like the bowl at streets) come in really hot and use the front brake to "lighten the load" on the rear wheel. then just dip it into the turn and go!
Finally somebody with a need to better themselves.
Jeff you da man baby, you da man!!











or he just wants to feel what it's like to fly in the air and look down at your bike!
somebody please go with him and film it........... pleeeeeeeeeezeeeeee!

[MrCrashRR]

I don't understand the physics of this quite well, though and not sure what the bike would do.

When the bike is straight up and the rear wheel locks up hard, the rear end (steering stem back) will start swinging from side to side. What will happen if there is some lean -- will the bike be swinging side to side or will it just swing to one side?


when you lock it up stright and then initiate your turn the back will slide out to one side... this cuts a tremendous ammout of speed, and even from 50mph... you arnt going to get it sliding for that long,...

so lock it up, press on a side to initiate the turn, the back will slowly go out to the side. continue to keep the slide stable untill you come to a stop. you can bring it back upright, or go for more angle. work in baby steps, but it really is pretty stable and hard to get it too sidewise without a lot of steering unput due to the drag of the rear tire will always want to be the farthest trailing point.

you dont want to ge going too fast and sidewise when you let off the brake, unless you are rolling on the throttle to continue the slide. ( much harder)

its fun and not too hard, and you can get it pretty crossed up,...and there isnt much chance for a highside unless you do something stupid like kick it out was to far and fast then let up in desperation.

the bike is going to want to continue in the direction you stared, and this gives you stability for leaning the bike back.

but again, this is fun for shits and giggles, and if you have never felt the rear move it may give you more confidence,...but dosent really apply to going fast at all.


on the track the back comes around from using the clutch, and then you are rolling on the throttle or you lean it over enough that it actually tracks back in line.

you can try the above with the clutch as well, although to induce this at street speeds its a lot harder and harder on the bike as well. ( go 80 or so in second or third, go down to first and just dump the clutch.,...this will get the back end hopping around and if you are turning or leaned to eith side it will come around)

Have fun, and dont get over your head,...im sure you'll be fine if you are doing things systematically to see the bikes reaction, and not just ****ing around.


and remember if you are way sidewise, with some decent speed, with the rear locked, and abrupt regain of traction could easily highside you, so instead keep the rear locked and try to stand her up a bitby realesing pressure from the bar and it will try to track stright again.


be safe man and have fun....

[shichyea]

Jeff, you're awesome...

+1 :bowdown:

[cbrsmurf]

hrm, thank you all for your input, keep 'em coming. I've already learned a lot from this thread.

I should point out I'm doing this just for fun, not be faster as I believe the fastest way around a track is w/o sliding.

Can someone explain to me why it is easier on dirt bikes and supermotos? Is it because of the longer suspension travel and/or geometry of the the bike? Or is it also cuz they are lighter? -- though I know many of the bigger supermotos weight just as much as a sportsbike

[MrCrashRR]

hrm, thank you all for your input, keep 'em coming. I've already learned a lot from this thread.

I should point out I'm doing this just for fun, not be faster as I believe the fastest way around a track is w/o sliding.

Can someone explain to me why it is easier on dirt bikes and supermotos? Is it because of the longer suspension travel and/or geometry of the the bike? Or is it also cuz they are lighter? -- though I know many of the bigger supermotos weight just as much as a sportsbike


lighter, more upright, wider bars ....

dirt is easier because things are sliding and the traction is lower and easier to become familier with things moving around on you...

[ssoulssurfer]

looks way fu%k!ng cool when the pros huck it out in and out of the turns. Also, you were right, awesome video. Fifth gear always has the best vids.

[ssoulssurfer]

I agree that many times it is the braking and downshifting that breaks the rear end loose, but it is undeniable that a few of them use the rear brake to assist (i.e. Hayden and I've seen Chris Ulrich do it right in front of me) and you can see it in this vid at around the 2:20 mark

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2980339455045998925&q=suzuki

(bad ass video btw)

I was planning to do it at fairly low speeds ('bout 30mph-45 mph) but if you guys think it's a bad idea, i'll hold off


I think you're right, if you watch the video closely, you'll hear and see kevin work his magic. Coming into the turn, the engine sounds like it dies, it looks like he pulls the clutch in, gets on the rear brake before coming into the turn, feathers the clutch with the throttle to straighten out, if you look closely, it doesn't look like he's down shifting at all.

[SPACEBOY]

Locking the rear with lean on the bike is a recipe for a high side as soon as you release the rear brake. Don't do it.
Trust me been there done that and dont ever want to do it again.

[MrCrashRR]

Locking the rear with lean on the bike is a recipe for a high side as soon as you release the rear brake. Don't do it.
Trust me been there done that and dont ever want to do it again.


oh come on highsides are fun :squid:

[ssoulssurfer]

Locking the rear with lean on the bike is a recipe for a high side as soon as you release the rear brake. Don't do it.
Trust me been there done that and dont ever want to do it again.


Maybe not for the pros, cuz he does it in the vid, its amazing how he throws the rear end out and just recovers so easily into the turn. Also, note his amazing recovery on some of the turns exiting, he totally slips the rear end out of the turn because of the power and recovers no problem.
:bowdown:

[Mael]

you're right, I don't know what I was thinking, sliding in the middle of a turn isn't caused by rear wheel lock but lack of grip between the tire and ground

And that lack of grip isn't caused by the rear brake, its caused by all the weight diving onto the front tire smarty...


And in your video, it wasn't backing in because he was on the rear brake, it was backing in because like everyone else says, hard front brake and the rear tire lifts off the ground. That rider was on the rear brake for only god knows why. All he was causing it to do was skid when it did touch down. And the whole point is to KEEP traction, not lose it.

If you wanna go trying to back it in by locking the rear tire, your in for a bike that is un controlable as it will have lost traction with half of the bike. You're basically going to try and do a Highside on purpose. Can't argue with physics buddy.

[Lost]

Jeff, if its not something that happens on small scale at the track, don't try it. Do yourself a favor and weld your back brake so it does not work. No one on here is good nuff to need to practice this stuff. There are a ton of other drills or things you could practice than trying to back it in.

A dirtbike is a better because it has less absolute traction and since it it light it is very easy to recover. Even a novice dirt bike rider will do it all the time. Get on a dirtbike and test it out, it will teach you to feather back onto the gas from the clutch. On the track, if you mess this up your flying. Same thing in the dirt, your just going 100 mph less..

[cbrsmurf]

Jeff, if its not something that happens on small scale at the track, don't try it. Do yourself a favor and weld your back brake so it does not work. No one on here is good nuff to need to practice this stuff. There are a ton of other drills or things you could practice than trying to back it in.

A dirtbike is a better because it has less absolute traction and since it it light it is very easy to recover. Even a novice dirt bike rider will do it all the time. Get on a dirtbike and test it out, it will teach you to feather back onto the gas from the clutch. On the track, if you mess this up your flying. Same thing in the dirt, your just going 100 mph less..

werd, i'll def be getting a dirt bike after i get my truck... i'm too wuss to try this at high speeds

oh and I need that rear brake for my off-track moments lol

[cbrsmurf]

And that lack of grip isn't caused by the rear brake, its caused by all the weight diving onto the front tire smarty...


And in your video, it wasn't backing in because he was on the rear brake, it was backing in because like everyone else says, hard front brake and the rear tire lifts off the ground. That rider was on the rear brake for only god knows why. All he was causing it to do was skid when it did touch down. And the whole point is to KEEP traction, not lose it.

If you wanna go trying to back it in by locking the rear tire, your in for a bike that is un controlable as it will have lost traction with half of the bike. You're basically going to try and do a Highside on purpose. Can't argue with physics buddy.

most of the time, when people brake, the rear wheel never leaves the ground. Most of the weight is transferred to the front, but I have heard more than once that people use their rear brake to settle their suspension or start a slide.

However, I understand now that locking the rear tire isn't what you want to do in order to back it in.

[sandogn]

Locking the rear with lean on the bike is a recipe for a high side as soon as you release the rear brake. Don't do it.
Trust me been there done that and dont ever want to do it again.

That's why I was saying that I smell a highside. I tried backing it in when I first got my bike, and locked the rear up like crazy before every turn. I highsided during my second month of having the bike.

I will post a link to a video of a guy on a motard highsiding from locking the rear and then getting traction. Even in an interview Rossi has admitted that he slides the bike less often because tires are so sticky now. The stickier the tire the harder they will bite,

[fratellobp]

Resurrect (sorry, n00b here).

I have zero dirt experience, but am considering taking the American Supercamp school. I believe they wet down a dirt oval and put you on 100cc dirtbike and teach you to slide under power (and maybe even back it in?), but only at 30mph.

Anyone taken this school or heard anything about it?

It was recommended to me by a buddy who recently started racing WSMC and recommended to him by a bunch of the racers. I do not intend to race, but I do plan on doing a good 12-15 trackdays this year and want to maybe take it to the next level.

Thoughts?

[peter1sp]

Get yourself a superbike mini-moto and a King Outfit. Practice some slides in a parking lot. Have someone video tape it. Then you learn to slide and have some sweet Youtube material.:cheers:

[veejay]

Resurrect (sorry, n00b here).

I have zero dirt experience, but am considering taking the American Supercamp school. I believe they wet down a dirt oval and put you on 100cc dirtbike and teach you to slide under power (and maybe even back it in?), but only at 30mph.

Anyone taken this school or heard anything about it?

It was recommended to me by a buddy who recently started racing WSMC and recommended to him by a bunch of the racers. I do not intend to race, but I do plan on doing a good 12-15 trackdays this year and want to maybe take it to the next level.

Thoughts?

I want to take that class too... I hear nothing but good things about it. Only problem is that is kinda pricey!!! I will go sometime in 07...

[Dissident]

Ok, so here's what I posted on the junkie site. Mind you, the back sliding on a dirtbike =/= the back sliding on a supermoto on pavement, which is more related to this:

I specifically asked Mickey Dymond how much back brake he was using, and why he was using it, and his answer what that whenever he is on the front, he is using a small amount (just barely engaging it) of rear, and that the reason for it wasn't so much to start the slide (again, my take is that will happen already from braking and changing gears), but that the rear brake is more to settle the bike and keep it from diving forward as much.

While I suck at it, I back it in without any rear brake (I have no slipper, and when I use the rear, I have trouble getting enough clutch in to keep the front from chattering).

the reason it is actually faster on the supermoto in tight turns is that you carry speed farther into it and shorten the track enough that by the time you'd get to the apex sportbike style, you're already back on gas and pulling away. On a sportbike, it's really only useful as a trailbraking thing so you can go in deeper and block someones line (i think).

It's also easier on a supermoto because you've got the same front tire, but 200 less pounds, so you can brake that much harder, and still have plenty of grip left to start turning while you are under full braking. You might be able to turn a sportbike a little while under full braking, but do it too much and probably wash out the front when the tire runs out of traction.

Can I back the supermoto in the dirt? Hell no, cause I can't brake the front hard enough (at all). Can I slide the rear coming out? Well, ask my ankle :(

[fratellobp]

Thanks all. I just took a closer look at the American Supercamp website. They actually now have an intermediate Supermoto school and use a CRF150 which has a front brake. They are listing dates as sometime in March and tentative, but I think this may be in SoCal if it happens (San Bernadino, maybe). When I find out I will post up and whether I can go, and perhaps hook up there.

[Dissident]

Hey, KTM demo days are $180 and plenty of chance to try backign it in.... Buy a supermoto and you can do it all day (if you don't crash) for $30.

[fratellobp]

So I was talking with Jeremy Toye (LCR) yesterday and I asked the question, "How do you back it in?" He looks at me and says (only half-joking), "Are you seriously asking that dumb-ass question?" LOL. First thing he says is get a 100 dirtbike. He also said that there are very few turns on ANY track in the US where it is actually faster. He did say that it's a little different on a Super Moto bike, but even then, the fastest guys aren't the gnarliest backing it in. Finally, he said that it's super-fun, and that when having fun on a super moto he will get crazy sideways backing it in, then notice he's running slower laps, but says who cares...he had so much more fun getting crazy sideways and just continues to do it and run slower laps.

He does use his back brake, more on some tracks than others (Sears Pt, Barber), to settle the suspension. He said Mladin never uses his back brake.

By the way, he recommended American Supercamp and said he has talked to alot of people who have had very good things to say.