Front Tucking?

[deathblow]

I really had a hard time at the track day when pushing my bike. Several of you guys have actually witnessed my front sliding. It made me not have very much confidence and it just felt wrong. Is there anything I can do to the setup of my bike to prevent the front from producing this phenomena. I do have about 23k hard mile on my stock forks and the Ohlins rear.

TIA

[Arnold_R1]

Originally posted by deathblow
I really had a hard time at the track day when pushing my bike. Several of you guys have actually witnessed my front sliding. It made me not have very much confidence and it just felt wrong. Is there anything I can do to the setup of my bike to prevent the front from producing this phenomena. I do have about 23k hard mile on my stock forks and the Ohlins rear.

TIA

Maybe it's time for the forks to get revalved? Stig was telling me even changing the fork oil can make a world of a differance and should be done every 5k miles or depending on how hard you ride. As in your case, you forks might be over due. :eek:

[deathblow]

Yeah, I know that, but I was hoping there was a quick fix ( read: cheap ).

[Arnold_R1]

Originally posted by deathblow
Yeah, I know that, but I was hoping there was a quick fix ( read: cheap ).

Well PPS charged me a little under $300 to rebuild my forks! :D That consisted of .95kg/mm springs, PPS valving, new fork oil, new shims, etc.

[GPTECHMAN]

YOU ON STOCK FORKS!!!!!! WTF
get that shhhhhhhhh revalved and resprung homie....
I dont think stock forks are set up for over 2bills....

essentially you could lower the fork tubes right...that would make turn in slower by increasing the wheelbase....but also increase stability in the front end

[deathblow]

Originally posted by GPTECHMAN
YOU ON STOCK FORKS!!!!!! WTF
get that shhhhhhhhh revalved and resprung homie....
I dont think stock forks are set up for over 2bills....

essentially you could lower the fork tubes right...that would make turn in slower by increasing the wheelbase....but also increase stability in the front end

I don't need increased stability, it took all I had just to get her through 20 minutes of the session. Actually most places charge about 300-350 for a fork rebuild, and it is that time of the season, so money is a little tighter.

[Arnold_R1]

Originally posted by deathblow
I don't need increased stability, it took all I had just to get her through 20 minutes of the session. Actually most places charge about 300-350 for a fork rebuild, and it is that time of the season, so money is a little tighter.

So Feb would be perfect for the next track day. 2 months prep time! Also the additional weight you gained, Allan, I think your forks are long overdue!

[deathblow]

Totally! I wonder if I should get my shock resprung for my weight also, damn.

[deno]

Originally posted by Arnold_R1
Stig was telling me even changing the fork oil can make a world of a differance and should be done every 5k miles or depending on how hard you ride.

Yeah, you should definitely have your forks redone. but until then, why don't you just change out the fork oil?
fork oil is pretty cheap! like twenty bucks or so...

[deathblow]

Yeah, I guess it'll make a good rainy day project :).

[TreAdidas]

Originally posted by deathblow
Yeah, I guess it'll make a good rainy day project :).

So you're saying you'll never get to it huh?

[GPTECHMAN]

you should mos def get both resprung...your prolly squashing the hell out of that shhhhh

[deno]

I was planning on changing my fork oil before the trackday. Already bought the oil and everything. Now I kinda feel like a dumbass after losing the front:errf:

[GPTECHMAN]

I blame myself then for laggin' and making you go surf....
my bad

[Arnold_R1]

Originally posted by deno
Yeah, you should definitely have your forks redone. but until then, why don't you just change out the fork oil?
fork oil is pretty cheap! like twenty bucks or so...

To change the fork oil, you have to remove the forks anyway, right? Might as well take the opportunity and send 'em off and don't worry about them for awhile. If you got the $, send them to either Dan Kyle or LE. If you got a lot of patience and a lot of stamps send them to Traxxion. If you want your forks back pronto and good reliable service all within driving range, PPS! Capesh! :cool:

[deno]

shutup Sean!:-p

[GPTECHMAN]

deno where your avatar at?>

[deno]

dayum! that was eerie. I was in photoshop, then hopped back onto the site and that was the first thing I read.

STALKER:eek:

[Arnold_R1]

Originally posted by deno
STALKER:eek:

They suck! :errf:

[GetnJgyWitit]

what tires were you running as well Allen?

[GPTECHMAN]

I think he was sporting the Renns

[deathblow]

Originally posted by GetnJgyWitit
what tires were you running as well Allen?


Rennsport RS1 front/RS2 rear.

[GetnJgyWitit]

How new were they?

[kc1717]

and what pressure were you running

[TreAdidas]

Originally posted by GPTECHMAN
I blame myself then for laggin' and making you go surf....
my bad

Oh so it was totally your fault we were rockin' team shambles style AFTER WAITING FOR YOU FOR LIKE AN HOUR AND A HALF :clap:

[shichyea]

late, but worth the wait.

[deathblow]

Originally posted by GetnJgyWitit
How new were they?

Pretty much brand new, besides taking them to the tight side of Palomar for 3-4 runs to scrub them in and the ride back and forth.

[Arnold_R1]

Originally posted by deathblow
Pretty much brand new, besides taking them to the tight side of Palomar for 3-4 runs to scrub them in and the ride back and forth.

Can't be the tires, gotta be the front forks! It's the forks I'm telling ya!

[GPTECHMAN]

alright here is my theory...
if you weigh WAY more than your forks are supposed to be sprung for then you can assume that in a turn when you are increasing the load on the front tire the forks will be more compressed....and in your case probably bottoming out....if this happens then the only other item that can absorb shock is your tire....if this happens then you are increasing the load on the tire, thus making the front more prone to tucking or loss of traction.

I guess theoretically if your bike is not properly valved then your bike may not be compressing and rebounding to track smoothly over the pavement.....any deviation will result in loss of traction again.....just a thought Im tired and this may not make sense...I apologize

[pasta fredo]

Originally posted by GPTECHMAN
alright here is my theory...
if you weigh WAY more than your forks are supposed to be sprung for then you can assume that in a turn when you are increasing the load on the front tire the forks will be more compressed....and in your case probably bottoming out....if this happens then the only other item that can absorb shock is your tire....if this happens then you are increasing the load on the tire, thus making the front more prone to tucking or loss of traction.

I guess theoretically if your bike is not properly valved then your bike may not be compressing and rebounding to track smoothly over the pavement.....any deviation will result in loss of traction again.....just a thought Im tired and this may not make sense...I apologize

I like that train of thought. I also have an RC51 and feel like I'm having the same trouble.......no confidence in the middle of the turn because I can feel the front end sliding. The GSXR 750 I had before just felt a lot more "solid" during a turn than the Honda. I've seen pictures of me during a turn (on the RC51) and it looks like the front end has bottomed out. Ever since I bought the bike I haven't spent the time setting my suspension to my weight and style of riding. Looks like a busy weekend Christmas shopping and getting the bike dialed in.

[deathblow]

I know for a fact that my forks are bottoming out. I have had my suspension set up 3 times by Lee's now and my zip tie always goes to the bottom, after I complained about it being there and they stiffened it up.

[Arnold_R1]

Originally posted by deathblow
I know for a fact that my forks are bottoming out. I have had my suspension set up 3 times by Lee's now and my zip tie always goes to the bottom, after I complained about it being there and they stiffened it up.

Now all you have to do is call around and get different quotes even though I know you're going to send 'em to Dan Kyle! ;)

[pasta fredo]

Last time I weighed myself the scale read 150 lbs. Talking with others, the consensus was that I needed to have the forks stiffened up (compression). I'll play with them this weekend and see if I can get any measurable results. I'd hate to have to do anything to the front end ($$$) as this is a 2003 RC with only 5500 miles on it (Dre putting on 500 of those miles while his ride was in the shop).

I thought I was the only one up this early in the morning Allan!

[deathblow]

Originally posted by pasta fredo
Last time I weighed myself the scale read 150 lbs. Talking with others, the consensus was that I needed to have the forks stiffened up (compression). I'll play with them this weekend and see if I can get any measurable results. I'd hate to have to do anything to the front end ($$$) as this is a 2003 RC with only 5500 miles on it (Dre putting on 500 of those miles while his ride was in the shop).

I thought I was the only one up this early in the morning Allan!

I always get up early, better to see what GPPOSTMAN has done overnight. But yeah, I weigh a whopping 217 lbs right now, I think. My Ohlins rear was sprung for a 195 lb rider and I think the forks brand new are sprung for a 190 lb rider. I could be wrong though. I definitely can't get my forks done until January, but I don't plan on doing that much spirited riding anyway :).

[GPTECHMAN]

so you are 230+ with your gear on right...damn 40lbs is a big percentage to be hammering out on your suspension....I think that maybe we figured out your tucking prob...

[deathblow]

Yep, it is alot to lug around on the track also, my legs were done after only 20 minutes! I was just really hoping that there was something I could do like up the rebound or compression, or maybe put more lines showing, but that will make it worse.

[pasta fredo]

Allan, let me know what you are going to do with your forks. Who, what, where, when? If you feel a difference in the front end I may have to pony the $$$ and get some work done on mine.

GETTING UP EARLIER....better to be done with my work day at 3:30 than 5:00 or 6:00. That is unless your Dre and you show up at work at 9, an hour lunch and off at 4:00 (sometimes 3:00). Wow must be nice to be the boss.

[GPTECHMAN]

well how cranked is your preload????
you could make that stiffer to try to get the most travel on your suspension....have you done that?

[deathblow]

I have heard good things about PPS, but I know Dan Kyle is the man when it comes to RC51s. I know DK charges $330 for a fork rebuild, but that doesn't include shipping.

As for my preload, I left it where Lee's set it.

[GPTECHMAN]

pump that shhhh up baby
you probably should have to max that shhhh out

[TreAdidas]

I had my fork preload set by lee's as well... and everyone that looks at my bike is like uhhhhh.... wtf?!?! Why is your preload like almost all the way out (loose)... Allan... maybe you should crank it up and see what you think!??!?!

[GPTECHMAN]

you mean almost no lines showing right???
I dont think you wanna make his bike into a pogo stick

[deathblow]

I'm already planning on tearing down my bike in January to get the fork and numerous other things done. But it looks like either Dan Kyle or Stig will get the call.

[Arnold_R1]

Originally posted by deathblow
I'm already planning on tearing down my bike in January to get the fork and numerous other things done. But it looks like either Dan Kyle or Stig will get the call.

I remember calling DK for a quote and he was charging me like $500+ to redo my forks; springs, valving, compression, rebound! :eek: So instead of having 8 clicks for each you will now have like 16 clicks! That's too many clicks that I don't need! PPS offers the same thing, but I figured I don't need that! Springs and valving is good enough for me.

[pasta fredo]

Originally posted by deathblow
I'm already planning on tearing down my bike in January to get the fork and numerous other things done. But it looks like either Dan Kyle or Stig will get the call.

Hey RC brother. Please let me know how this goes. Not sure if I need to get this done yet but it good to know. What other mods have you done?

[deathblow]

Oh no... hehe.

I'll put it in order in which made the most difference.

Ohlins rear shock, PCIIIr, Sato Banzai pipes, Ohlins Damper, QRacing rearsets (they suck), Galfer steel braided lines front/back, Woodcraft clip-ons, Vortex upper triple tree, Vortex gas cap, Hotbodies undertail. I also removed the flapper valve,the screens in the snorkle, and the soft_rev_limiter.

Oh yeah, switching to a rounder profile tire help alot also, turn-in wise. The stock 190/50 sucks, go with 180/55 or 190/55.

[kc1717]

well im 255 after dropin a load standing naked, so with gear im damn near 275-280.

i have no work done to my front end, and i get absolutly no feel from them.

i replaced my rear shock with an ohlins set for my wieght, and the rear end is sooo predictable now, it honestly fet as if i didnt have suspension before.

i really really need to get my front end done so i can pick up my corner entry speed.

also at palomar i didnt check my presure till i was there and it ws running at 25 WTF in the front so that helped make the front end feel even worse.


well this was just a lot or pointless information, but at least im not just whoring.

casey

[GPTECHMAN]

nothing wrong with whoring :)

[kc1717]

had to give you the oppertunity :)

[pasta fredo]

Originally posted by deathblow
Oh no... hehe.

I'll put it in order in which made the most difference.

Ohlins rear shock, PCIIIr, Sato Banzai pipes, Ohlins Damper, QRacing rearsets (they suck), Galfer steel braided lines front/back, Woodcraft clip-ons, Vortex upper triple tree, Vortex gas cap, Hotbodies undertail. I also removed the flapper valve,the screens in the snorkle, and the soft_rev_limiter.

Oh yeah, switching to a rounder profile tire help alot also, turn-in wise. The stock 190/50 sucks, go with 180/55 or 190/55.

CHA-CHING.....with the PCIIII were you able to remove the "California cannister". Talk about pain in the ass when it comes to something as simple as changing the oil.

Is the turn in that much better with the 180's? Damn, Dre got me the 190's. Can't complain though didn't cost me a dime.

What's next for you?

[pasta fredo]

Originally posted by GPTECHMAN
nothing wrong with whoring :)

Is this post whoring?

[pasta fredo]

Oooohhh! Feels good.........can't stop........

...must
...stop

[GPTECHMAN]

If it feels sooo good can it be so wrong????

[shichyea]

"don't fight it... let it happen."

:lol: :lol:

[deathblow]

Originally posted by pasta fredo
CHA-CHING.....with the PCIIII were you able to remove the "California cannister". Talk about pain in the ass when it comes to something as simple as changing the oil.

Is the turn in that much better with the 180's? Damn, Dre got me the 190's. Can't complain though didn't cost me a dime.

What's next for you?

I left the canister on for now. I plan on doing the PAIR mod soon, which gets rid of it. My last major mods will be the front forks being rebuilt and track bodywork. :)

[GPTECHMAN]

Originally posted by deathblow
I left the canister on for now. I plan on doing the PAIR mod soon, which gets rid of it. My last major mods will be the front forks being rebuilt and track bodywork. :)

whats the PAIR mod...

[deathblow]

The exhaust emission control system consists of a secondary air supply system which introduces filtered air into the exhaust gases in the exhaust port. Fresh air is drawn into the exhaust port whenever there is a negative pressure pulse in the exhaust system. This charge of fresh air promotes burning of the unburned exhaust gases and changes a considerable amount of hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide into relatively harmless carbon dioxide and water vapor. The PAIR system is controlled by the ECM using check valves and a solenoid.
Removal of the PAIR system will yield three main benefits: 1) weight reduction 2) reduction of engine compartment clutter 3) increase in the scavenging ability of the exhaust system.

[pasta fredo]

Originally posted by deathblow
The exhaust emission control system consists of a secondary air supply system which introduces filtered air into the exhaust gases in the exhaust port. Fresh air is drawn into the exhaust port whenever there is a negative pressure pulse in the exhaust system. This charge of fresh air promotes burning of the unburned exhaust gases and changes a considerable amount of hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide into relatively harmless carbon dioxide and water vapor. The PAIR system is controlled by the ECM using check valves and a solenoid.
Removal of the PAIR system will yield three main benefits: 1) weight reduction 2) reduction of engine compartment clutter 3) increase in the scavenging ability of the exhaust system.

Help me here(lack of sleep has prevented me from understanding a word of what you just said and I read it 3 times).....what does this mean in layman's terms? I pretty much want to know what in the world do I need to do to get that thing off of my ride? Talkd to me like I'm wearing pants pulled up to my armpits, highwaters, hair slicked back, shirt too small and big glasses.

[deathblow]

LOL, I actually copy and pasted from www.rc51.org . I think it is basically an exhaust recirculation system to help reduce emissions.

[shichyea]

...like a pcv valve on a car?

[deathblow]

Originally posted by shichyea
...like a pcv valve on a car?


Ummmmmm, yeah!

[dre_2k2_f4i]

pasta_fredo: sell the RC-51 and buy a Gixxer 600... or a 600rr. C'mon, buy Bryant's 600rr!

A buddy of mine has the paperwork for plugging and removing the emissions canister on a S'Hawk. If you get the book for the RC-51, I am sure we can fish around for the comparable parts and get it patched up in an hour or so.

[dre_2k2_f4i]

Hey, what does this have to do with front tucking??? pasta_fredo -- weren't you complaining of this as well? You tamed a Gixxer 750, you can't handle a wimpy lil' Honda?

[pasta fredo]

Originally posted by dre_2k2_f4i
pasta_fredo: sell the RC-51 and buy a Gixxer 600... or a 600rr. C'mon, buy Bryant's 600rr!

A buddy of mine has the paperwork for plugging and removing the emissions canister on a S'Hawk. If you get the book for the RC-51, I am sure we can fish around for the comparable parts and get it patched up in an hour or so.

Well little one. Get you skirt over here and get to work. Don't for get to change the oil while your at it.

[deathblow]

Also Dan Kyle sells his PAIR valve covers for like $20.

[pasta fredo]

Originally posted by deathblow
Also Dan Kyle sells his PAIR valve covers for like $20.

Allan - Is there anything else you can think of that I might need to get the job done successfully? I have getting down to it and missing things here and there.

[deathblow]

Originally posted by pasta fredo
Allan - Is there anything else you can think of that I might need to get the job done successfully? I have getting down to it and missing things here and there.

I haven't not done the PAIR mod to my bike, although a guy I ride with has, I'll ask him.


As for my front forks, I finally went to PPS today and dropped them off. I'm doing the revalve with maybe a some new valving that Stig wants to try on my forks, for more controlled diving during brake, corner entry. He did say my springs should be right for my weight. He did offer the Ohlins internals that the Superbike teams used in the 2001 season, but that was double the cost, wish I could have done it though. Hopefully my forks will be done by next weekend so I can try 'em out on a ride :).