Where do you look?

[Stuman]

When you enter a corner, where do you look? Do you have a specific sequence of stuff to look at or do you just try to keep looking ahead?

[longhornGSXR]

depends on the turn...but basically you keep looking ahead of the bike...there is a lot to it...Check out this book..."A twist of the wrist" very good book on riding!

[Redtatt2]

Hey Tom... so you've read that book? I was checking it out at cycle gear...was thinking about buying it.

[wanderer]

don't get TOTW as a newer rider. it's HEAVILY geared towards advanced racing and will most likely leave you with blank look on your face.

now TOTW vol 2 is a much better choice. doesn't get into the technical dynamic as much and is a LOT easier to understand.

may i ask have you been thru the MSF course?

when entering a corner, you look as far thru the corner as you can.

[longhornGSXR]

Hey Tom... so you've read that book? I was checking it out at cycle gear...was thinking about buying it.


Yeah well havent read the whole thing but going through it as we speak...recomend it to anyone...They have a good vid too!:thumbsup:

[rondre3000]

I like to look "into" the turn before I start leaning the bike in so if there is any thing on the surface to watch out for I'll know before it's too late. Once the bike is tipped in, I'm already looking "thru" the turn and up ahead.


-r.

[Redtatt2]

Yeah...I had to learn the hard way (several times) that looking THROUGH the turn is very important! haha
So..hmmm.. I might have to go buy that book now.
Hey Tom....how late is Cycle Gear open during the week? I need to pick up some motorcycle pants and a part I ordered.

[longhornGSXR]

Yeah...I had to learn the hard way (several times) that looking THROUGH the turn is very important! haha
So..hmmm.. I might have to go buy that book now.
Hey Tom....how late is Cycle Gear open during the week? I need to pick up some motorcycle pants and a part I ordered.


http://www.*********.com/stores/san_diego.cfm

like Darren said get vol 2 i think it is...There is a race book and there is a basic skills book. Depending on your skill level get one of them... MSF course is a must! two :thumbsup: :thumbsup: for sure...

[MotoFuzzle]

don't get TOTW as a newer rider. it's HEAVILY geared towards advanced racing and will most likely leave you with blank look on your face.

now TOTW vol 2 is a much better choice. doesn't get into the technical dynamic as much and is a LOT easier to understand.

may i ask have you been thru the MSF course?

when entering a corner, you look as far thru the corner as you can.

I agree with D...Either volume 2 or get "Total Control" by Lee Parks.

[Termin8r]

don't get TOTW as a newer rider. it's HEAVILY geared towards advanced racing and will most likely leave you with blank look on your face.

now TOTW vol 2 is a much better choice. doesn't get into the technical dynamic as much and is a LOT easier to understand.

may i ask have you been thru the MSF course?

when entering a corner, you look as far thru the corner as you can.

In case you missed his intro previously, Stuman is an instructor for Keith Code Superbike school. I'm sure he's quite familiar with both TOTW and TOTW2. He's good with posting topics that make people think about things when riding.

Personally, I look at and through the apex when entering a turn. Then I look out as far as I can into the next turn. This is definitely easier on the track than on the street.

[veejay]

basics comes down to....

straight line riding: at least 12 seconds ahead... perferrably the horizon

cornering: entering the corner your head should already be turned and looking at the exit... once you get to the apex (part of the corner in which you're closest to the inside) you should look ahead to the entrance of the next corner or back to the horizon.

[wanderer]

In case you missed his intro previously, Stuman is an instructor for Keith Code Superbike school. I'm sure he's quite familiar with both TOTW and TOTW2. He's good with posting topics that make people think about things when riding.

Personally, I look at and through the apex when entering a turn. Then I look out as far as I can into the next turn. This is definitely easier on the track than on the street.


ya rich i guess i did miss his intro. also the point of his question due to his qualifications

[TreAdidas]

Books...

Twist of a wrist is good.... Great information, but I think without question the best book is:

http://www.webbikeworld.com/books/images/sport-riding-techniques.jpg

Sport Riding Techniques: How To Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety, and Confidence on the Street and Track ~by Nick Ienatsch



... by the way if you go into Google and type "Ienatsch" and click "Images" the fourth picture is of Dre.... weird!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1893618072/sr=8-1/qid=1143055727/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-3080436-6506357?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Nick Ienatsch the same fellow who authored "The Pace." Nick's book gives you an overview of street survival. The creedo he preaches is right in line with the standards we try to uphold with the Hypercycles community. He maintains that the weakest link in the bike rider marriage is the rider and the only place limits should or can be tested is on the track. This book details all things a rider must develop an understanding of and control over. Namely throttle, braking, turning, eyes, ears,.... and most importantly RIDER ATTITUDE. Everyone on this board should own this book. I have made a habit out of reading it whenever I go on a plane ride which shapes up to me about 3 times or so a year. The thing is 128 fully illustrated pages of solid information.

So Stuman. If you want the best and shortest answer to your question about where to look read chapters two and three which are respectively titled "The Eyes Have It" and "Steer that Thing"

[BioHazard]

Books...

Twist of a wrist is good.... Great information, but I think without question the best book is:

http://www.webbikeworld.com/books/images/sport-riding-techniques.jpg

Sport Riding Techniques: How To Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety, and Confidence on the Street and Track ~by Nick Ienatsch



... by the way if you go into Google and type "Ienatsch" and click "Images" the fourth picture is of Dre.... weird!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1893618072/sr=8-1/qid=1143055727/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-3080436-6506357?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Nick Ienatsch the same fellow who authored "The Pace." Nick's book gives you an overview of street survival. The creedo he preaches is right in line with the standards we try to uphold with the Hypercycles community. He maintains that the weakest link in the bike rider marriage is the rider and the only place limits should or can be tested is on the track. This book details all things a rider must develop an understanding of and control over. Namely throttle, braking, turning, eyes, ears,.... and most importantly RIDER ATTITUDE. Everyone on this board should own this book. I have made a habit out of reading it whenever I go on a plane ride which shapes up to me about 3 times or so a year. The thing is 128 fully illustrated pages of solid information.

So you want the best and shortest answer to your question read chapters two and three which are respectively titled "The Eyes Have It" and "Steer that Thing"

+1 that is a great book.

[GPTECHMAN]

When you enter a corner, where do you look? Do you have a specific sequence of stuff to look at or do you just try to keep looking ahead?
oh god, here he goes again... I've seen you do this on all the other forums...:rolleyes:

[Termin8r]

oh god, here he goes again... I've seen you do this on all the other forums...:rolleyes:

^stalker^

[hypersport]

Again someone should label STUMAN a Hypercycles Veteran. He maybe able to help people from crashing on group rides.

Props to Stuman for helping people think while they ride.

oh god, here he goes again... I've seen you do this on all the other forums...:rolleyes:

[Termin8r]

Again someone should label STUMAN a Hypercycles Veteran. He maybe able to help people from crashing on group rides.

Props to Stuman for helping people think while they ride.

Wow...he went there. Then again, why does a member with BLUE letters try and discourage discussions that are geared toward safety? Isn't this a safety-oriented forum? Aren't the BLUE guys supposed to reflect leadership and trustworthiness through their posts rather than try to make newly registered veteran riders feel unwanted?

Do your thing, Stuman. :bowdown:

[pjpellici]

Nothing wrong with that, I know that he is an instructor. Hopefully he can teach us something.

[GPTECHMAN]

Wow...he went there. Then again, why does a member with BLUE letters try and discourage discussions that are geared toward safety? Isn't this a safety-oriented forum? Aren't the BLUE guys supposed to reflect leadership and trustworthiness through their posts rather than try to make newly registered veteran riders feel unwanted?

Do your thing, Stuman. :bowdown:
Nah, agreed, just dont want to waste time with anyone playing newbie. I know he knows more that I will ever coming close to knowing... If he has information share it, but why pose a question to something he already has preconceived teachings about.

I welcome STUMAN to do his thing. Glad to have someone as knowledgeable on the board.

[deathblow]

I just try to look through the turn, at the exit of turn to be more specific.

[BioTek]

Books...

Twist of a wrist is good.... Great information, but I think without question the best book is:

http://www.webbikeworld.com/books/images/sport-riding-techniques.jpg

Sport Riding Techniques: How To Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety, and Confidence on the Street and Track ~by Nick Ienatsch



... by the way if you go into Google and type "Ienatsch" and click "Images" the fourth picture is of Dre.... weird!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1893618072/sr=8-1/qid=1143055727/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-3080436-6506357?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Nick Ienatsch the same fellow who authored "The Pace." Nick's book gives you an overview of street survival. The creedo he preaches is right in line with the standards we try to uphold with the Hypercycles community. He maintains that the weakest link in the bike rider marriage is the rider and the only place limits should or can be tested is on the track. This book details all things a rider must develop an understanding of and control over. Namely throttle, braking, turning, eyes, ears,.... and most importantly RIDER ATTITUDE. Everyone on this board should own this book. I have made a habit out of reading it whenever I go on a plane ride which shapes up to me about 3 times or so a year. The thing is 128 fully illustrated pages of solid information.

So Stuman. If you want the best and shortest answer to your question about where to look read chapters two and three which are respectively titled "The Eyes Have It" and "Steer that Thing"



Awesome book. I read Twist 2 and got the DVD, put me to sleep.
I read Sportriding Techniques and it all clicked for me, the Keith Code stuff makes total sense to me but it is just layed out in a way that bores me.

[TreAdidas]

Awesome book. I read Twist 2 and got the DVD, put me to sleep.
I read Sportriding Techniques and it all clicked for me, the Keith Code stuff makes total sense to me but it is just layed out in a way that bores me.

+1 on that... not dissing th einfo just the presentation... Nick's book is just fun to read. He presents his stuff in a very conversational way that anyone can understand.

[FatimaR1Blanche]

Have not read the Ienatsch book, but at least the Total Control book by Park has exercises that go along with his instruction.

[Stuman]

Guys, I catch S#|t for posting these kinds of questions all the time. It’s no big deal to me, I can take it. I don’t mean to mislead anyone to thinking that I’m a new rider looking for advice, I’m just trying to spur discussion. If I feel like adding my two cents in I will but it is not my intention to come on this board and spout off about stuff either.

As for “where do you look”, I ask it because I think most people know that you are supposed to look ahead, but I wonder if most riders have something a bit more specific to look for at each stage of a corner. It’s real easy to say “you need to look way ahead” but as many of you have probably figured out it is much easier said then done. I think it is a little easier to think along the line of… when you are here, look there, and so on. Like just before you turn the bike into the corner look at where you want to apex.

[Termin8r]

Not really defending you as much as trying to uphold the standards for the site. It's definitely a good place to get information as much as it is to share.

Funny thing about this topic was that I was thinking about something related to it on my way in to work yesterday. I noticed that the manner in which I look through a turn at a track doesn't carry over as much when I'm on the street. I guess it's harder on the street when there are so many more things that can jump out at you...like the car in the next lane. I guess that's expected.

[hypersport]

Stu, you provide good thoughts for discussion for this website. To say, "oh god, here he goes again... I've seen you do this on all the other forums" It may help the people who have never seen these on other boards and may shed some light in helping us or newer riders.

[RadPajita]

+1 w/Termin8r. I've learned so much in a year and the one thing i took from the MSF course and from resposible friends is to always look through the turn. As I kept practicing "look left and push left to go left..." on the streets, it made more sense on the track. I now notice and find myself looking at the apex of the turn before i turn in and look completley through the turn when i get close to or at the apex to exit. This has helped with staying consistent with my turns.

[Cyanide41]

I look at the 1 cone as I blow past it, then I look at the apex, then ground, sky, ground, sky, ground.

[Bryant]

Heya Stu,

I've got a question for ya:

I've always wondered what I could do better around those decreasing radius blind corners like on Palomar Mt. where you cannot see more than a couple yards ahead of you. The only thing I can do is really just start by taking it slow through those blind corners, learn where it goes and check to see if any branches/rocks might be in the way of a particular line I want to take and then pick a good turn-in point for the turn. After a few runs I can ride at a fairly fun/spirited clip but I can't help but want to push the envelope a bit on my "sportbike." On the track, I've learned to site my turn-in point, apex and look ahead to where I want to be to set up for the next corner and that has improved my riding immensely (it's so much easier to do on most tracks). However, I typically find myself dealing with too many variables on the street to be totally confident taking corners on canyon/mountain roads. Makes riding on the street less fun for me... feels like as I get older I'd rather just ride a nice comfy sport touring or cruiser on the street and keep my sportbikes at the track. That way I don't feel this strange urge to push the "traction gremlins" as they say on the street.. ;p~

What are your thoughts? I'm not getting old and boring am I??? :eek:

[Termin8r]

Heya Stu,

I've got a question for ya:

I've always wondered what I could do better around those decreasing radius blind corners like on Palomar Mt. where you cannot see more than a couple yards ahead of you. The only thing I can do is really just start by taking it slow through those blind corners, learn where it goes and check to see if any branches/rocks might be in the way of a particular line I want to take and then pick a good turn-in point for the turn. After a few runs I can ride at a fairly fun/spirited clip but I can't help but want to push the envelope a bit on my "sportbike." On the track, I've learned to site my turn-in point, apex and look ahead to where I want to be to set up for the next corner and that has improved my riding immensely (it's so much easier to do on most tracks). However, I typically find myself dealing with too many variables on the street to be totally confident taking corners on canyon/mountain roads. Makes riding on the street less fun for me... feels like as I get older I'd rather just ride a nice comfy sport touring or cruiser on the street and keep my sportbikes at the track. That way I don't feel this strange urge to push the "traction gremlins" as they say on the street.. ;p~

What are your thoughts? I'm not getting old and boring am I??? :eek:

Heeey...I resemble those remarks. I thought I commented something similar to this, Bod. It's like the more I ride the track, the more scary it is to ride street. Lines seem so much harder to setup on the street. Thus, you're not alone. I don't think it's age as much as having had the experience on the track and then wanting to translate it to the street which seems impossible.

I'm anxious to hear what Stu has to say about it though.

[Stuman]

Heya Stu,

I've got a question for ya:

I've always wondered what I could do better around those decreasing radius blind corners like on Palomar Mt. where you cannot see more than a couple yards ahead of you. The only thing I can do is really just start by taking it slow through those blind corners, learn where it goes and check to see if any branches/rocks might be in the way of a particular line I want to take and then pick a good turn-in point for the turn. After a few runs I can ride at a fairly fun/spirited clip but I can't help but want to push the envelope a bit on my "sportbike." On the track, I've learned to site my turn-in point, apex and look ahead to where I want to be to set up for the next corner and that has improved my riding immensely (it's so much easier to do on most tracks). However, I typically find myself dealing with too many variables on the street to be totally confident taking corners on canyon/mountain roads. Makes riding on the street less fun for me... feels like as I get older I'd rather just ride a nice comfy sport touring or cruiser on the street and keep my sportbikes at the track. That way I don't feel this strange urge to push the "traction gremlins" as they say on the street.. ;p~

What are your thoughts? I'm not getting old and boring am I??? :eek:

I don’t know what to say man, it sounds to me like your just using good judgment, not blasting into a corner on the street. I just think it doesn’t pay to try to push you envelope on the street, the consequences are just too high. Maybe I’m just getting old and boring too or maybe I’m spoiled because I get to ride on the track a lot.

That said, there is a concept in Keith’s books called the Vanishing Point that is probably the most helpful tool when it comes to riding an unfamiliar road with the type of corners you describe. The idea is that the vanishing point can be used to give you some warning about what the corner is going to do (tighten up or whatever).

[brownbrown4]

Guys, I catch S#|t for posting these kinds of questions all the time. It’s no big deal to me, I can take it. I don’t mean to mislead anyone to thinking that I’m a new rider looking for advice, I’m just trying to spur discussion. If I feel like adding my two cents in I will but it is not my intention to come on this board and spout off about stuff either.

As for “where do you look”, I ask it because I think most people know that you are supposed to look ahead, but I wonder if most riders have something a bit more specific to look for at each stage of a corner. It’s real easy to say “you need to look way ahead” but as many of you have probably figured out it is much easier said then done. I think it is a little easier to think along the line of… when you are here, look there, and so on. Like just before you turn the bike into the corner look at where you want to apex.
wow, every one is talking about you like your a Folk hero... may i ask who you are and how you got such a good Reputation?
jeff

[Arnold_R1]

That said, there is a concept in Keith’s books called the Vanishing Point that is probably the most helpful tool when it comes to riding an unfamiliar road with the type of corners you describe. The idea is that the vanishing point can be used to give you some warning about what the corner is going to do (tighten up or whatever).

Well since you're on the topic of converging points using them is an excellent way to help gauge your entrance and exit of a turn, especially if you're unfamilar with whats around the corner. As I'm approaching a turn in a canyon, I tend to focus on the exit, scanning about 20 yrds ahead if possible. On the track where you can see your exit more clearly, I tend to look further ahead, more towards the next corner of the track. I'm not sure if this is 100% adaquate.

9 times out of 10, I quickly calculate this formula in my head to help determine the acceleration composition speed and helps alot! :nerd: :nerd: :nerd: :nerd:

http://www.mrelativity.net/Equations/Equations2_files/image074.gif

[stangbaby67]

Learned the hard way today that I need to remind myself to LOOK THROUGH THE TURN. Came home, lurked around a little, and saw this post. I fixated a little on a car making a left turn on the other side of the median where I was turning right. I was thinking, "Man, how much would it suck if I biffed the turn and ran into that car?" I went way wide, and ended up saying hello to the median a little. I was parallel to it by the time I reached, it, but still bumped it with my tire. Reminded me of what my MSF instructors kept saying: You're going to end up where you're looking. (Always followed by: If you look down, guess where you'll end up. Note: I don't look down. :) )

[sersalaz]

enjoy!

[Peeps]

I found with riding those blind twisties at P.I.R. (Palomar International Raceway) the best way to approach them is to charge them, but just before you're apexing toot your horn three times to alert oncoming traffic you may be running it wide.....never fail equation to the best times on the mountain, rain or snow, you da man! (Or woman.)

[Peeps]

Twist of the Wrist one and two are a great place to start for your future racing career (be it racing around town or at the track)..........and I happen to have a copy of each for a smokin' hot deal just for you! Don't wait, as they may end up on half.com! Make me an offer (why pay full price for something you're going to read and then dogear all while on the john?) Also, just absorb the riding techniques, any refrences to Scientology should be overlooked and ignored.

[sandogn]

Here is my two cents on where to look while cornering, it is purely based on a method I use and I think it is sort of unique.

Rather than looking through the entire corner I break the corner into sections, look at/ focus on the key places my bike needs to be, and try to get to those places a quickly as possible (sort of connecting the dots).

Let me first start with the entry of the corner that has some hard braking before it. Before I turn into the corner my body is on the bike, and my head an shoulders are facing forwards. My eyes will glance at the apex or the next part of the turn, but right now my focus is when will I begin my turn. Turing in to early or late is going to have a huge effect on my exit. My goal is to choose a line that will maximize speed going to the apex without running me off the track (going wide). I wouldn't say that I am just staring, but while on the brakes hard I look to find my entry point where I being to lean the bike over. Your entry point will not always be the same, espesially when passing someone, but before you can start looking through a turn you need to look at where you will start your turn. I use brake markers to initiate braking, but after that I look ahead to the entry point to make sure I am setting my speed perfectly. Am I slowing down to much? Not enough? Could I brake later next time? These are the questions that run through my mind as I am braking towards the entry point. In the perfect corner I will brake as late and as hard as possible and arrive at my entry point at the perfect speed for my trip to the apex. To sum it up, I look at the entry point when entering a turn.

After I enter the turn I look at where I need to go next. Some people say they look through the entire corner or at the exit, but I am sure that I focus on the apex after I enter the corner. Some of the best advice I ever got when I started out was "Try to hit the cones at the apexes with your knee every time." Why do I look at the apex and not the exit?? Becuase I am not worried about my exit at this time. Experience through this corner has told me that if I enter the corner from the entry point I took and hit the apex I will have a great exit. So when I'm learning a track I fix exit issues by resolving entry point issues. If your entry point is good you should be able to go from there to the apex every time without worrying about your exit. Sometimes practicing this technique is scary as hell but focusing/ looking at the apex is the fastest way for me. For example, running Buttonwillow backwards alot of peple are afraid of the lost hills. The only real reference point is the cone at the top of the hill. You can't even see the track on the other side until you are at the apex so you have to trust that if you hit the apex after leaving the entry point you will end up on the track. IMO lost hills is just like any corner. It proves that you do not have to see the exit to blaze through a turn, but you HAVE to look at and hit your apex. I treat every corner like lost hills and focus on linking entry point to apex rather than linking entry point to exit. If exits are getting screwed up then something is wrong with either the entry point or you are not hitting the "real" apex.

Once I have hit the apex I try to get on the gas as hard as I can without running wide. This is really where looking ahead can make you or break you IMO. If you look too far ahead you will not be getting on the gas as hard as you can because you will think you are running wide of you anticipated line. Looking too far ahead pretty much guarantees that you won't run off the track, but it often leads to an exit line that is inside of the best line and is slower. Just look at an AMA racer. They exit corners and end up using the entire track. I think it is amazing how Mladdin hits the same little piece of curbing every time he exits the same corner. So if looking to far ahead won't work, what will the opposite do? Well if you look at the edge of the track after you apex that is probably where you will go. I have seen the occasional rider target fixate on the curbing at the exit of a turn and go right off the track. So where do you look? The best way I can describe where I look is somwhere in between looking down the straight and looking at the edge of the track. The last turn running buttonwillow backwards is the most important exit on the track because it leads to the front straight. I often found myslef hitting the same piece of curbing to keep me on the track. There were a few times I got some amazing exits out of the corner. To be fast you need to go as fast as you can from the apex to the exit without going wide. I try to do this by looking at the point where I will stand the bike up and complete the corner. This point is often far ahead, but it is often at the edge of the track where the turn ends and the straight begins. By looking at the endpoint I can gauge if I am going too fast or could be going faster. If I do it just right I should get to the endpoint at the same time my bike becomes upright and I am at WOT. Without looking at the exit point I feel I am just playing a guessing game and I will probably leave the corner differently every time. I am sure Mladdin must look at his exit points in order to hit them time after time like he does.

Anyway. Hope this wasn't too confusing. This is just what I do and was mostly based on one type of corner leading to a big straight. Exiting at the edge of the track is not always best. Hope this helps someone.

[Averagejock]

+1 Just purchased, you should work marketing Chucky

[TreAdidas]

+1 Just purchased, you should work marketing Chucky

It's a good coffe table book :)

[sandogn]

Look what I happened to stumble upon.... Rossi explains it all.


CLICK HERE! (http://www.r6messagenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=28330&d=1150936102)

IMAGE CAN BE EXPANDED TO READ.

[GixxerDemon55]

I always look through the turn, unless you low-side. Then you're looking at your bike while you go sliding through the turn...hahahahaha!